Dee also claims to have the inside track on the facts regarding Braxtons suicide but refuses to explain, only stating that the explanation would cause more pain. Will they stay quiet on "awkward" victim stories? They all seem to be on display at HBC. Conversational-type sermons, contemporary worship music, come-as-you-are. TS00: It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. With so much at stake, it can be very tempting to cut corners for the sake of what is viewed as a larger good. Lord knows we need a fundamental change in the selection of leaders for the Body of Christ and an accountability system in place to keep the charlatans at bay. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? My church was a much smaller WC wannabe but the dynamics sre the same and bear the same fruit. im proud to be human. understanding that each of us is constantly growing and shifting. If they depend entirely on the good will or humility of the elder-elects themselves and (no-teeth-allowed, no mechanism for) church members having a say? Sadly, many have not served well. Turns out that he was looking to fulfill his succession plan all along, and was just cycling thru people until he found one that fit. The other 30 Elders and 12 XLT members will, likewise, move on to other ministry opportunities. Wonderful, on point comment. His arrogance and rage unbalances him. Remember when we videotaped us all playing The Name Game? Personally I do not want to create that kind of hardship for the surviving relatives of those who made my youth group experience a nightmare. Then, I started laughing! These head pastors will gladly pay SM large fees in exchange for helping them become secret multi-millionaires. Id say largely because the leaders themselves have been told to believe this. They are all one and the same. We will note however, that within the church, the world elder is not only a reference to age, but also a position or office of the church. in Springfield MO in late April Driscoll Will be sharing his wisdom as a highlighted speaker. But if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. the powerbrokers have everyone brainwashed that the insitution is too big to fail. these are their personal standards. Many a victim of domestic or spiritual abuse might have been better protected by understanding this reality. There are true men of God who are laboring in the field who never get accolades and honor bestowed on them this side of heaven. Yikes! Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? SiteSeer: Is there a foolproof system that cant be gamed? ex HCA Staff: . James MacDonald will be starting a new ministry. He did this knowing that I was qualified for neither. Those types rarely think of anyone but themselves. He claimed he felt God "laying on his heart" that "in several years The Chosen was going to be what people thought of when they pictured the disciples." More hard for me to imagine a job description for this that commands a big salary, let alone a modest salary. All three of those aspects are absent from the biblical directives in providing care and oversight to Gods children. Looking forward to the recording of a worship night on Thursday, March 2. HBC leaders will have to give an account before God for these things. So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? What followed, over the course of the remaining time I/we were there at the school and at the church in Elgin, attests to exactly what has been revealed about HBC, almost to a tee, and led to my first-hand interactions with Rick Donald, Fred Adams, and a few select others. Didnt Dallas or is there another Jenkins son? As both Luke and Peter write, they use all three Greek terms in the same context, regarding the same office, filled by the same men. TS00: Nothing is more dangerous than a tyrant who genuinely believes in his own false mission. I mean, how could you be labeled Christian without giving Jesus a little bit of credit?! What I see, I cant un-see; what I know I cant un-know its in my knower! If anything, out of all the ashes has come a humbling of my spirit. The proof of the Jesuss death and resurrection is what allows us to have faith in the things unseen. And you dare to point your finger at TWW participants, and courageous Dee? I implore you to keep a watchful eye on those who cause trouble and make difficulties among you, in plain opposition to the teaching you have been given, and steer clear of them. blameless Made a lot of money, enjoyed the fruits of fame that was a product of his professed following of Jesus. HBF disbanded in 2017. In a statement written by church elders, the Chicago-area megachurch says they fired MacDonald for "engaging in conduct contrary and harmful to the best . And just because there is a list of qualifications doesnt mean that men wont lie to gain access, or construct a pseudo religion to hide in. +++++++++++++++. WHERE TO FIND US. Yet the first line in that post was that Dee would not allow comments. You cant change that. (which for me is the whole idea. We must put our unreserved trust in God alone, and to at least some degree view all men even our most trusted loved ones by their fruits. Ill be blunt, your post is silly. Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong. That incident was only the tip of the iceberg. I just wonder how much of my tithes went to support their gambling problem. 4107 N Steele Blvd. Dallas, maybe you should read the red letter Bible the T. Jefferson compiled from the King James Version? This, along with the embracing of the whole seeker-friendly, mega-church model caused us to leave the church and people we loved, difficult as it was to explain. I can only imagine what was said as explanation, particularly as my spouse (still blindly loyal) remained much longer than I, until our children put up a united appeal to leave. Much as I seek to be gracious and forgiving, it is extremely difficult to accept these new confessions at face value. But isnt the model you commented on the same model that HBC followed and totally bollixed up? These churches treat women so badly, but promise men all sorts of things (that will probably never happen) to keep the men coming. The laity has a huge role in keeping leaders in check, at least theoretically. This all happens when we gather, grow and go together as followers of Jesus. David: Fred Adams former Harvest CFO has a serious gambling addiction. I personally doubt that MacDonald was ever sincere, but it is likely that many of his deceived henchmen were. Nobody wants this. EXACTLY the same as at Willow Creek Community Church. You see, the symbolic meaning of harvest in Scripture encompasses two main areas: God's provision for us and God's blessing for others. You could be the pope for all I know. That, in my humble, fallible opinion, explains much of the evil that has taken place in this world. but i have gained a newfound joy in being a member of the human race. Like it or not thats whats happening. If Paul was a rogue usurper, Luke was the co-conspirator who legitimized the takeover. Clevin: Does anyone have examples of big churches that are emblems of integrity? There are some 30,000 Christian denominations and parachurch organizations in the world. For me I choose to pray and let God work, he never ceases to amaze especially when he answers prayer. As you might imagine, there have been thousands of additional actors . I was there (our kids went there for 2 too long years) and it was unreal what went on during and after that incident. And this is a relatively new development in protestantism, its just 45-50 years old. Harvest Bible Chapel Hillsong United James Dobson James MacDonald Jason Sobel Jenna Browder Jennie Lusko Joel Smallbone John Hessup Jonathan Roumie Joni Lamb Jordan Feliz Kari Jobe Katie Torwalt Kay Robertson Kirk Cameron KLOVE Leanna Crawford Levi Lusko Mandisa Marcus Lamb Matt Hagee Matt Maher Mavericm City Michael Jr Phil Robertson Phil Vischer Precept Inductive Bible Study for Women. Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain as well (and save yourself the time writing me about how my faith must not have been that deep if indeed Im struggling with God and Jesus). he has no tore proof to offer me. Fayetteville, AR 72703. You might find people here are a lot more willing to retract and set things right than the crowd youve run with. Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. generous. Every church leader should be good and honest. Feb 14, 2022 . I find it very comforting to know that Jesus entered into a world that was very similar to what we now face: Religion had become a caricature of what God desired, and Jesus gently called people to follow him, rather than fear men. Your comments about pastor so and so were so, er, clever! Nothing to be ashamed of. +++++++++++++++++++. We should not be surprised that the battle between the false and the true rages on, and should continue to cling to the true, whatever the cost. Does anyone have examples of big churches that are emblems of integrity? Does that make you manly? Sad. The Didache and letters of Ignatius and Clement confirm this, as well as other writings from the early second century. Behind him, an ancient city unfurled. Remnant, youre welcome! Catholic Gate-Crasher: Lol. Scott G Winterton, Deseret News. I think you are correct in noting this early Church writer's statements. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. Be wary of falling into the trappings you so boldly wish expose. Bridget: Im, however, convinced that the original disciples didnt completely understand what Jesus intended, nor were they able to carry out His intentions without sin in the mixture. You and the other TWW regulars feel like family. Short films include award-winning "The Ride" and. What religion is Harvest Church? Same thing church leaders told Mars Hill members after Driscolls exit and Willow Creek after Hybels exit. Redemption is a gift, freely offered to one and all. Humility is required. Its nice to have a multimillionaire dad. Jimmy Evans, Head of Marriage Today TV & Sr Pastor and Apostle of Gateway Church, is reportedly in contact with James MacDonald. Vincent: you must have first hand knowledge and part of that fellowship in some fashion. Not for money or fame but just because you want to show them love. If only we would listen to what Lewis was saying, we might avoid these bullies going way back who latch onto Christianity because of all the naive fools who are suckers for the Gantry/MacDonald Schick. Many do not seek truth, but whatever best tickles their ears. id say you are beholden to the public to explain to them with all transparency. I bring up Eastern Orthodoxy because its dogma and practices are very old. Jenkins is a former member of the Executive Leadership Team at Harvest Bible Chapel where he served as the Executive Director of Vertical Church Media. I do know from reading the Acts of Perpetua and Felicity (said to have been written in 203) that church leaders argued with each other. At this point however the narrative cannot be controlled by people because God Almighty is acting now. Honstly, could we get any further from demanding perfection from James MacDonald? If you had anything, Dallas, youd have shared it. They all were making out pretty large with the tithes of people who thought they were giving to good causes. Harvest Bible Chapel is an evangelical Christian megachurch in Rolling Meadows, Illinois. The only reason you dont want exposure is because you dont want damage to your film career. Now, four of Harvest Bible Chapels campuses have Hope Centers to provide food and other resources to families in across Chicagoland to provide help and hope found only in Jesus. The one time we visited Spain and France and visited (maybe 4 or 5) churches from about 1200 CE up to Notre Dame in Paris, there were (especially in Spain) tons of silver and gold used on private family altars scattered all around the floor of the more recent cathedrals, to the point that there wasnt really room for many actual worshippers. Churchgoers in 21st century America are just too gullible to keep these folks out of the pulpit. And your husband whos probably going through a rough one. Quit trying to privatize and hide in secret that which should be public. Please do not use these as an excuse not to be part of a vibrant biblical church! seeing the beauty of the deposit of God in them. Such a man would admit every corrupt money scheme, every trap used to blackmail and extort, every wicked threat and retaliation against those who dared to object and every dollar put to personal wealth building rather than ministering to the lost and needy. During this season, we are encouraging everyone to give online and that can be done by clicking the button below. . Look what that got them. Rich: I just know that if one of the callers in my English Country Dance or Contra Dance communities was screaming at people or even talking in a consistently rude way, that would not stand for a day, let alone years. And it is bad form to hijack a thread to comment on a topic when asked not to. He sat there for years and participated when people were being bullied and abused, being screamed at by their pastor and boss to the point of tears, watching hundreds of thousands of dollars being spent profligately. You are used to being in control of who sees what. To new commenters I guess I mean that a person, on his or her own, cant do it without God working it out in that person. It is also pure, and I would say faulty, assumption to state that the main issue is that the flock will quickly go astray. Power provides for itself and money and sex. Which answers your later points. And it appears that this started with the first generation after the original apostles since Ignatius was discipled by the Apostle John and Clement was trained under Peter and James. Cudos for your honesty. Samuel Conner: I wonder whether it might not be better to simply abandon the entire property-owning paradigm and return to the original practice of meeting in public places (for large groups) and in homes (for small groups). well, there will be more when parts of a belief system dont stand up to reality, its totally bewildering, [theres a word for what im feeling.it escapes me. I am truly grateful for and encouraged by your kind words. Harvest launched a radio show; founded a Christian school with over 700 students; built its own retreat center; produced feature-length films; wrote its own worship songs; and created its own. I mean, everyone thought Willow Creek was that church. Look what that got them. The Elephant Debt has painstakingly detailed these issues for over five years. Exactly what were people afraid of? He has not let us down, and even now is exposing these wolves. Instead, the cowriters hope that the show will encourage viewers to read the gospels with renewed passion. This is even more understandable in our world of online abuse. You should make your case by offering proof. you are a very comforting presence here, Max. And if this instance is questionable, then all posts and claims are questionable and credibility goes out the window all because Dee knows best for everyone and will not allow discussion after making claims with no supporting evidence. But the manner in which these charlatans lead indicates they dont really know Him they just use Him. Every church should be safe and reliable. . I was really hoping I would find that this was a much later development. ANYONE who is still in that place who is not a child or a new believer is complicit and participated in shunning all who left. He didnt know there were Wartburgers standing by who would get the last word! i have an observation: i know many people who dont subscribe to christianity, yet are the most excellent human beings. I still believe that Jesus lived and the NT is reliable. i understand the losses you describe, and experience them, too. Ive seen the lightning flashing, You worked for Us. Muff Potter: Youre not alone elastigirl, theres no way I could watch it either. Good words, Fisher. Im also going to be annoyed if James McDonald pulls a Mark Driscoll and starts up a new church. "Do Theologians LIke Russell Moore Ever Apologize for Theological Blunders of the Past?" He says he knows, "from the inside, some of these things that have come out in the public about pastors". The present situation has for me the feel of exile and diaspora in the intertestamental period. Truth the WHOLE truth is the only antidote. No announcement, no warning, just Have something I want you to see. Then suddenly Boom, there it was on the screen. They all rest on the character of the persons involved. Again, like you, I am aware anew of Gods presence in many different places and people, and recently most poignantly in marginalized communities and people. Time and again, examples in the Bible show light shinning in darkness. They engineered the black funds and the worst of the financial abuse. It doesnt even matter if you post your actual name, if someone is full of venom for you, theyll find some reason to spew it. As shortages in food and hygiene items started to grow in the Chicago community as well as widespread layoffs, Harvests Compassion ministry expanded. Dallas Jenkins, Executive Director, Vertical Church Media at Harvest Bible Chapel, and son of Jerry Jenkins of Left Behind fame, tells stories for a living and shares insider info about producing and directing films at Harvest in this session of the Pro Church Podcast. Forgive MacDonald if he genuinely repents? Every single person there loves Harvest so much that they cant leave?? And he was promoted to the XLT or whatever?? Many have joined the Done ranks done with the institutional church, but not done with Jesus. Dallas Jenkins Net Worth. Every weekend we open the word of God and study the truth He has revealed to us. They deliberately employ a faulty theology to ensnare and use others for their own ends. Who knows? Such men do not really serve our Lord Jesus Christ at all but are utterly self-centred. I only point out that the historical evidence is not what we protestants want it to be. MORE CONCERNING THE ELDERSHIP Samuel Conner: I read an article yesterday about small mainstream churches driven to the wall by the migration to the megas being forced to lease their vacant during the week facilities to small businesses in order to generate enough income to keep the doors open. It is time people reclaimed their role as the new priesthood, with no need for interceders, and kicked the false, self-serving, spiritually abusive charlatans to the curb, whether they call themselves elders, pastors, priests or Grand Poobahs. For example, no one would say that those who spoke out about Bill Hybels harassing women were wrongly airing a personal grievance.. Living in what the people of Chicagoland call "the northwest suburbs" theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, teacher Laura Barringer had a front row seat when things began unraveling at Harvest Bible Chapel and Willow Creek Community Church, and furthermore were acquainted with many of the people who became a part of our daily Twitter and blog feeds about both stories. Our staff and volunteer leaders cant wait to welcome your kids to our safe, secure, age-appropriate program. Imagine the chaos if we all put our full names out there, along with the names of our (former) churches and the various miscreants, lay and ordained, living and dead, who assaulted and extorted us over the decades. Ive read that the sweet spot in church size, that combines small enough to know the flock (and small enough that all the flock can know the leaders) and large enough to be endowed with a diverse array of gifts is around 300. The need for such men is apparent. Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. It obviously took courage for you to write it. But there was some dark humor in the hoopla surrounding it. It is designed to provide a worship experience for people in remote communities or for those who otherwise cannot join us live for the service. Too bad there is not a single human being on the planet that is qualified. I initially read that as bought him years of support.Same thing I guess. From the earliest days of the institutional church, abuse and murder has been wreaked upon those who dared to believe that they could serve God outside of The Church. hospitable But please, enough with the Evil Baddy-Bad-Bad Constantine Nonsense. Trust me, youre not. Ill have to ruminate on that a while. And those statements dont legitimize any of this garbage that goes on. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. So Guidepost "determined that using Twitter was no longer an option for them." So why not allow comments? Walking in the light means not having to cover anything up and not belly aching when God Himself is the one shouting truth and revealing things from His Mountaintop. It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. Founded in 1988, it has grown to seven campuses in the Chicago metropolitan area. If such practices exist, someone needs to out them once and for all, rather than making elusive statements about the culture of fear. Thing is, if it were Bill MacDonald, a little-known pastor of a tiny church from Podunk, Alabama, and he and his wife were having marital troubles that didnt involve his abuse of others, it likely wouldnt be anyones business but his close friends and perhaps his little church. That dog dont hunt. The images of Christs mother Mary witnessing her sons torture, the glances and faces of the cast Mel Gibson portrayed were (and frankly still are) made to elicit deep evil and were very frightening to see, and the utter agony of Christs pain was so graphic, I still cant erase it from my memory. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. You need to stop being like JMac and actually follow Jesus once and come out into the light. Harvest took in over a HALF A BILLION DOLLARS in the last 12 yrs and many of their properties were donated free and clear. How you understand the word? -, I figure whenever Paul was speaking to us through Scripture, he was drawing from his personal knowledge of the Kingdom of God rather than what he thought about it. Throughout the many posts, including this one, there has been some balance and at least an appearance to be open for discussion, albeit without original proof. 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