Neither one of us are church goers and our family is no overly religious. If their Dad is a hard drinker selfish enough to drink and drive with them in the car, then theyll have probably seen a huge amount of other poor behaviours, including him not being able to act as a functional adult for them when their Mum & then their sister died. @ Barbara Roberts: im in those environs every so often. It would be good if she could be more specific on what this alleged therapy is though. There are phone books with that same information. I know that you have been negatively impacted by your family members alcoholism. Barbara simply made some kind of reference to Scripture about biblical discipline that you dont agree with. all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. Please include what quote you are talking about. If he wants church support, hes going to have to change churches, I think. Shirley Ann Downey Sproul passed away November 9, 2016 in Tucson, Arizona at the age of 84. In the meantime, here is the link: http://www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/. 2. Intriguing. They have to want it themselves, and desperately so. I erred in previously responding with, As far as anyone can tell it hasnt been reported on. Spinderella Sproul has reported on this but the specifics on RC Jrs probation terms seemingly been difficult to come up with. Another poster posted Scripture from one of Pauls letters about not fellowshipping with people who proclaim faith in Christ Jesus, but live a life of continual unrepentant sin. I thought that the criticisms raised of Barbara & Julie-Anne had been well & plentifully explained by them. I dont think Barbara used the word excommunicate, although I do see how one could extrapolate the idea from kicked out. And I use the analogy deliberately, because it has just about all of the dead-end singularities from which no light can ever escape: Thats why a Guild Navigator is indispensable when folding space. When my hubby was in college, his favorite uncle (who was a terrible alcoholic) died holding my husband's hand. The exchange of viewpoints is very effective. Sproul Jr., and his wife, Lisa. He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. or a drunkard, [substance abuse] Julie Anne Smith, at Spiritual Sounding Board, has written a number of article on him, including accusations that he allegedly believes in wife spanking. What that entails goes far beyond boundaries and often means marital separation, i.e. I hope you can now see why I saw a joke in the typo. Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. so terrifying. Please check back later for why I think this article is pertinent. Would it help your perspective any to know that RC Jr has unjustly excommunicated entire families, and were not just talking a few, including small children, for the alleged sins of their parents? did comment above and gave us some important facts (and a lot of fiction too): of wine was effective in taking the edge of the pain so that I did not have to use any stronger pain medicines. That is the picture Im getting from those of you who have kept up to speed on RC Jr for a long time. She needs help for being married to an alcoholic: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/ Serous help? And they have people in their life who are honest with them and call them on it. Sproul Jr.s excommunication. hbbd``b`?$E This just goes to show what can happen when you have related people working in a ministry like this. Serous help? but alcoholism causes medical and psychiatric problems if not treated, and these problems deserve intervention. Pick up any newspaper and read. The atonement was made by the human nature of Christ.. Changed lives. No, I am not talking about recovered alcoholics who repented of embracing patriarchy. Maybe feeling comfortable is too much to expect when something is not ready to be shared. It had such a devastating impact on my husband that he doesn't drink alcohol. Here bones had been severely broken, and I will never forget seeing her elbow and knee in traction. We can be His hands & feet to a hurting soul, we can listen without telling, we can confess our faults to others so they understand they are not alone, we can give anonymously to people & not tithe to a church. In time, this changes for the better. Maybe these two guys were separated at birth. Scroll down to the bottom of the post. How his alcoholism is handled is a separate issue, I agree, from him being a jerk to people. I dont remember if it was the Spinderella blog or somewhere else, but I do remember reading a comment from a former member of his church whose kid was in Sproul Jrs car when he was driving drunk, and (if Im remember right) after the kid told the parents, they never permitted their kid to ride with him again. The yawning gap between what he has preached as a Pastor & how hes been as a man is a fertile ground for stopping believing, if they ever even started. so pushing anger down is exhausting and depressing and being able to BE angry openly is a step in the right direction, My husband likes to read Peanuts and is always amused when he can announce that Im having a crab-in a la Lucy Van Pelt. Even in his recent Ashley Madison scandal his punishment of being suspended from Ligonier Ministries turned out to be a reward. Actually, their chirping is far more natural and more beautiful than the cash register at the book store. And here is the moderators response to Cortney: Cortney, your story is not an isolated incident. We dont have money for the hanger-ons those that are faking it bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. (not that any of us arent being transparent in this virtual thing, here. But when we have followed the path of destruction he has left in his wake for decades, I hope you can understand why our first reaction was not Get treatment for RC2. Its just that our first thought is for his past victims and future victims if he is allowed to continue. Theres a lot thats known about how to deal with people with addictions. More of Anne Lamotts conversion story: http://ontopofgiants.blogspot.com/2012/06/anne-lamott-on-her-conversion-to.html. Not just over the alcohol, but based on his other actions (using a cheating site etc) he has disqualified himself. I doubt it. Like they were in my lane. If one has not read the Adult children of alcoholic books, dont consider yourself educated on this matter. What will the families of alcoholics and drug abusers do? Then again for a period of time in my life I bought into leaders like these. As you and I discussed here yesterday, I am in agreement that Sproul Jr. should be terminated from his job because he is unfit. Q. I get full after two. I doubt it. Very true. Actually, at the end of the day he was responsible for his choices. Im not so keen to hold the church up as a solution to anyone for any reason. Abuse is a different issue. Why should a pastor be held to a different standard? Answer: not that much so dial it back. And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. Although no church is perfect, some have lousy ideas about caring. Maybe Sproul 1 needs support from other families of alcoholics (and professionals) in order to have the emotional and spiritual strength to let his son hit bottom. I also believe we should take this in context with Matthew 18 and Galatians 6 and James 1 (and maybe others, too). Share Background Report Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida Phone: View phone number Age: 84 Gender: Female But if you need some level of safety, then be cautious. I offered H.A. Yes, she and I are in agreement on that point. This wasnt a little bit buzzed. and wasnt he the one who had advocated that Christians (his version of it) should watch filthy movies and so on? Finding resolve amidst the dissonance of "churchianity". These men have made fortunes off the backs of faithful, trusting people. I believe you missed the intent of Dees post. In my part of the U.S. we thankfully have a variety of lost-cost medical clinics that include psychiatric services. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. I think you are misunderstanding me. Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. We have gone several rounds. Wine is praised as a gift in scripture. I checked out the comments on the Spinderella blog. It is great in this day and age with blogs etc. Maybe she was advocating for it to be done in public (? Answer to God. It was as a college freshman that R.C. Thats the importance of getting them into treatmentand then waiting, praying, and not enabling. R.C. I no longer read Barbaras blog for that reason either. I was contacted by a Christian who lurks here and struggles with addiction, who was deeply pained by what was written (including by Barbara Roberts and H.A.) (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) ~ja, Myself and RC Jrs other adult children are estranged from him. He boasts about it in his Ligonier Tales with no regret, remorse or embarrassment expressed. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. If one has not read the Adult children of alcoholic books, dont consider yourself educated on this matter. In our former congregation, we were not told to shun the person, nor necessarily to pursue them (as in Matt whats-his-names church and the elder trying to force Karen under their care, or something like that), but to use opportunities to express concern and reason with them. It didnt help me with depression or anxiety (thats the truth), and I did try attending a few different churches at low points in my life. OK, well, Im not sure if I am in agreement with that view or not. Right. You and I differ on this, and I see no agreement between us on the issue of what is the rightful place of the church in such matters. @ Friend:Yes, Please pray. There is no gradual progression or build-up. Sproul 2s drinking Their brains truly dont work. The defrocking was plenty scandalous all on its own, but RC Sr. turned it into a full blown debacle. Velour wrote: If RC Jr could have legally used the rack at St. Peter Presbyterian Im confident he would have, at the very least, held out the threat of its use. It is also possible to have a guilty conscience when no objective guilt is present. As bad as his alcoholism is it pales in comparison to all the spiritual and emotional carnage hes caused. spiritualsb@gmail.com. Actually, at the end of the day he was responsible for his choices. And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. Probably the minute you think am I drinking too much? is a good time to cut back. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. She is a white, non hispanic female registered to vote in Seminole County, Florida. You dont know the extent of Sproul 2s medical problems since neither of you are physicians who specialize in this. [3][4] Sproul has been described as "the greatest and most influential proponent of the recovery of Reformed theology in the last . [or cut out entirely] Double that if other people start making comments to you about it. I daresay that people would have learned less about alcoholism, too. And guess what Yeah. This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. Id take it over blind faith any day. Otherwise, there may well be avoidable tragedy in their futures. I have read it several times, actually. I do agree that people wont change unless they want to. That was wrong of Sproul Jr. and he did an incredible amount of damage. She can run her blog how she likes. ALL FAKE NEWS. WHEN THE MAN WHO ABUSES YOU IS ALSO A COP. You and Barbara Roberts have never said, You know, I have no clue how to deal with substance abuse. Because I have had my nose rubbed in Sproul Jrs teaching for a couple of decades, I took my own understanding from what she said, quite the opposite of the one you seem to have taken. Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! The solution to spiritual abuse isnt to cast aside what the Bible commands the church to do, its to obey the Bible. The ceiling didnt come crashing down and God didnt scream from the rafters, Sinners, the lot of you! The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. But when we have followed the path of destruction he has left in his wake for decades, I hope you can understand why our first reaction was not Get treatment for RC2. Its just that our first thought is for his past victims and future victims if he is allowed to continue. That is also comparing apples to oranges. I grew up in a verbally abusive family, so I have been here before. Why are you addressing that to me? In the midst of my own imperfections, it was difficult for me to find peace in my assurance. Robert Charles Sproul was born February 13, 1939, in Pittsburgh, the son of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann (n e Yardis) Sproul. A passionate photographer, birder, genealogist, historian and occasional poet, John was 85. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking . As for whether or not other believers part company with him that situation is delineated by Christ Jesus Himself in Matthew 18. Sovereign Grace Ministries We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. Sproul was driving under the influence. From the bottom of my heart and for all of the lurkers here who struggle with addictions who ARE Christians, thank you! Am still not seeing how sitting about with other people will cure certain issues such as alcoholism. Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. That was applied to believers who were professing to be believers in Christ Jesus, but were living a life of open rebellion and hypocrisy. Its deeply odd for a grown man to mock anyone who doesnt drink. I am grateful that R.C. My biggest concern is that he'll give some time for the dust to settle and then weasel his way back into "ministry." If you had ever lost a loved one to alcoholism ( Ive lost two ) you would know that entire families can spend every waking minute and all of their financial resources to try to help and get help for their alcoholic family member resulting in failure after devastating failure . Sproul Jrs spiritually abusive treatment of church members and whole families. Sprouls alcoholism and the fact hes a jerk are two separate issues. She also lost her two front teeth, among other serious injuries. For Sproul Jr. to only get probation and no prison term must have been the result of having a good lawyer. (A stinkbomb doesnt have to be dropped with malicious intent to make a room uninhabitable). Youre absolutely correct about the damage that these false teachings have done to so many people who will forever associate them with the church and wont step foot in a church again. Had she been confronted and expelled from church, none of this would have happened. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. They got it right. The odds of his being able to convince a jury of his innocence was remote. You have taken this quote out of context . But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. Many of us have been abused in our families of origin, which is bad enough. This story cuts too close to home. I doubt it. I got there, there were big huge cracks in the wall, the elevators were broken people screaming and injured and there was my father asleep right after his surgery. . Send me an email. Im sorry that Im unable to divulge further, but based on what I know, I say he should be put out, period. This is not cool. From this description, Anne was not in leadership at her church, and she was not actively hurting others in the church, or pushing alcoholic beverages on others in that church to somehow justify her own drinking. Sproul 2 is still in the throes of active alcoholism and all of its destruction. So Ill start to believe that RC is repentant when he contacts me personally to confess and repent of all the damage he caused me and my family. Being a believer, in that crowd, has little to do with belief and everything to do with appearances. Nobody should pretend, or be told by his friends, that he can hold a prominent role in the body of Christ whilst drunk. Telling me that I cant respond to other people here who post comments to me. DUI/DWI is a crime. Youve got some great insights. To underscore how terribly serious these matters are, and how long they've been going on, here's a very disturbing comment from Cortney on Spinderella Sproul: "As sad as this is, it isn't surprising. I hope that you will encounter those like me whose lives have been forever impacted by this particular sin. The first semester we lost 20 guys who were so put off by Daddy and Jr. picking students out and tearing them down in front of the class. I know plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy. Plus I dont like the way it makes me feel. Vastly different things. To the contrary, this blog is littered with stories of the failings of 9 Marks, Acts 29, and a plethora of other churches who have inflicted great harm on people before hundreds if not thousands of people. If they will listen to anyone at all it has to be someone whos been there themselves. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; We are also to bear one anthers burdens, help one another, etc. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. Even though they were on the same comment, i didnt mean to apply that brown comment to your situation, but generally to the use of alcohol to dull pain. I had a normal meal and he had no food, but many drinks and remained at the restaurant (drinking) after I left. Youll say in one breath that the dude should be fired or held accountable, but then you get angry with people who say he should be held accountable or be fired (in public). In case you hadnt noticed this article is about RC Sproul Jr, but youre making it all about you. In our former church, which I understand was similar in many ways to RC Jrs church, it involved either calling a congregational meeting (that would be to talk about the situation before taking it to excommunication) and then acting when the congregation was gathered together for worship (the cynical part of me wants to say, The more the merrier but it probably has something to do with holiness and ceremony), an elder would read out a statement and pronounce the excommunication. Ive seen the terrible impacts of alcohol abuse in my family, beginning with just a beer at the picnic to full-fledged alcoholism with many consequences. ), Thank you so much for this balanced and compassionate post, George. The response speaks for itself. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. In fact, putting him out of the church may prompt him to truly hit bottom so he realises that he MUST get help and he takes serious steps, ongoing efforts, to get the help he needs. The state does not usually come up with the funds for treatment. Both men have left a trail of shattered relationships. Bang head on table. I sure hope that church members or family members uncover the rest of the sins that have been covered up at St. Peter. Like Liked by 1 person. Or just the general run of the mill people who support patriarchy (because its what they are used to being taught)? It is crystal clear. And I can picture her sitting there and not being intimidated or harassed, but I reckon it must have been like coming home around people who had been through hard times and come out of it with humble hearts and thankfulness AND love. When he was stopped, the officer observed that Sproul needed support to walk, he swayed, mumbled and had a moderate smell of alcohol on his breath. I still think Im justified in taking offense by such a term. Im the former member of RC Jrs church who contacted Dee. It would be rare that any of them are qualified when it comes to alcoholism and substance abuse in general. I posted that list to you multiple times. 3. As it turned out, my depression was more a symptom or a side effect, not the cause of my issues but no doctor I ever saw caught it. Julie Anne, who to the best of my understanding has no education about substance abuse, defended Barbara. Remember defrocking? Do people who have alcoholism or other issues get passes from rules and standards that apply to everyone else? Finally, if anyone who is aware of further drunk driving or other forms of abuse,I hope that they will call Child Protective Services. Should you have been kicked out of church because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any other problem? But more often than not, we do one or the other of the following with such comments: . Ones dad ritually abused her as a baby, and another one doesnt even know his dad. He just had his church take a vote and put him right back in as their pastor, which is all the proof you need to know his church was actually a cult. @ Julie Anne: It was crystal clear. She was saying he should be put out. (This is confusing me ). Weve all read your points over and over again. That is manipulative on your part. A gamer I knew got rammed and killed by a drunk driver around 20 years ago. I believe I may have been on this blog longer than Velour has, though Ive not been posting here as much the last 2 3 months. And what about all of the other people in the pews who watch that go downwho have problems? Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. The ceiling didnt come crashing down and God didnt scream from the rafters, Sinners, the lot of you! I am not the least bit surprised by this as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. The Downeys had two daughters, Patricia and Shirley. Do you realise how offensive that is? Rcjr is a gentle spirited man who loves his family and grieves over his sin. Deb, I also meant to say, How horrible for your friend that she lost her parents in such an awful way! Thanks for your follow-up comment. Sproul 2 has done. But, in the case of a person that just will not repent and get help, and they refuse to own their sin, I Cor 5 is pretty clear. The best thing for him and those in his orbit, his incarceration. You tried to paint me with the same brush, but I happened to read your response and corrected you. Not impressed. I have always considered this site to be , for the most part, a discernment ministry that is pretty fair and doesnt make unsubstantiated allegations for the purpose of harming or hurting. I speak at CR on behalf of educating, as well as other community organizations supporting families such as AA. I dont disagree with you that a drunkard also needs medical assistance to give up his addiction, and very likely would also benefit from mental health assistance to deal with other underlying issues he may have. Unfortunately, it is usually an entirely different story getting those scenarios to take place. Many of us then turned to the church for compassion, thinking it was a safe place for full disclosure, only to be abused there too. they are excellent human beings. His addiction did not force him to drive, and his addiction did not force him choose alcohol rather than treatment, assuming he was actually addicted. Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant of a person he is and how quick he is to admit his failures. Deb, your photos were the first thing I saw. Im not sure if Im thinking of the same comment, but I remember reading a comment that was confirming that this was the first DUI in a long history of drinking and driving (a history that goes way back, before the deaths of his wife and daughter, which means hes been doing this for years). (So sorry for your terrible experience Dee). Not completely sure what you meant by this part, People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. I even opened up to church people about some of the problems I had but was met with platitudes and put downs, not support. Thank you. The scars are still there but not that noticeable. And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. Start owning up to what you do. The scene was an absolute tidal wave of love. Here is what he REALLY said. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. Can you find out for us if this was a New Calvinist takeover thing? RC Jr has routinely practiced excomminicating and shunning. @ Max: Leave him alone! Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! JYJames, thank you so much for posting that scripture reference and the phrases in it. Ive known some recovering alcoholics to go back to churches and to speak before the entire church about the damage they did to so many peoples lives, as well as make personal amends to people that they have harmed. Julie Anne, who to the best of my understanding has no education about substance abuse, defended Barbara. They should face the consequences of their actions, including job loss. (I use red wine in cooking and I am glad to be out of an insufferable NeoCalvinist church that saw sin in everything, including spaghetti sauce.) Do they choose their friends among other heavy drinkers? It is perfectly fine for you to believe that. I hope it is true. 123). After awhile, even when things settle down, one can still feel the same sort of anxiety. A brand of churches implies plural churches like a denomination. Generally will not drink around them. Single Women in the Church: Valued orNot? Menu. Velour has been advocate for many hurting people here on this blog, offering prayer lists, & reminding people to give, if they can, to help those in need on TWW, also giving of her own resources. Yet often they are overlooked while the oppressed one gets all the attention. Neither the logical fallacy of ad hoc nor the fallacy of poisoned well should be hauled out and passed off as anything except what it is-fallacious reasoning. I would agree that Sproul shouldnt be disqualified due to his ADULT sons issues. RC Jr does. Sproul Jr. is not qualified to keep his pastoral job. The crack I heard was his leg bone splitting lengthwise down his leg. as opposed to their christian relatives who have been strapped with all manner of convoluted *& conjectured* shoulds and shouldnts. That is bad enough but when the person cant control themselves from driving when they are under the influence of alcohol makes this a lot worse in so many ways and more so when has children riding in the car with him when he is drunk. (BTW, I agree with her.). Divorce would go beyond that to Its the end of the road., However severe the problem may seem, most people with AUD can benefit from treatment. But not everyone is an alcoholic nor should they be classified as such. Here's a quote from at least as far back as 2005. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. Its too much for some families. I am not saying any of that to discourage anyone from seeing a MHP or taking medications. Just wanted to say, this echoes the thoughts that have been running through my mind after reading the article. 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Its to obey the Bible commands the church up as a solution to spiritual abuse isnt to cast what... The oppressed one gets all the spiritual and emotional carnage hes caused you can now why. Could be more specific on what this alleged therapy is though and prison... In his Ligonier Tales with no regret, remorse or embarrassment expressed Jr. sounds like hes running cult. Abused in our families of origin, which is bad enough of actions. Responding with, as well as other community organizations supporting families such as AA cure certain issues such as and. In previously responding with, as far as anyone can tell it been! No objective guilt is present a good lawyer brand of churches implies plural like!
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