They can be several feet above the leak or to either the right or left of it. will flow? By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. Founded by Hubert Miles, Certified Master Inspector. A downpipe is typically vertical and extends to ground level. Usually you can also work those loose without removing shingles. downspout, your gutter probably overflows during heavier rainfalls. >>. Mx*6UmToS If leaks continue to occur from ice dams, consider installing roof-edge heating cables. Some roofs have long sections of valley that carry a lot of rainwater at high velocity. Gutters were too narrow, original installer needed extra space to extend the gutter relatively to the roof edge. Hang the new gutter next to the old one, and then slide the patch under the seam. <> The gap between the gutter and the roof can vary in size The water flows into the drip edge and eventually travels into the gutter. Not all gutters are the same. Replace any cracked, rotted or missing siding, making sure the new piece overlaps the step flashing by at least 2 in. To contact us either call our phone number shown above or fill out the form below. It is recommended to lay down a protective piece of furrier strip rather than leaving them flush. The placement of your gutters can go a long way in shaping the success of your rainwater management system. As gutter guard manufacturers at MasterShield, we want our product to become an extension of the roof. One problem you may find is that your shingles extend too far out at the base of your roof. And, you should probably. x$G22g KHv!# Y,N|Dp Home centers usually stock seam sealer near the gutter parts. Thanks so the key is the distance between the front of my tiles and the far side of my gutter - easy to fix as I can push tiles back a bit if they overhead too match. Any more and you run the risk of water running off the tile and overshooting the gutter. x 10-ft. aluminum flashing. Rusted flashing needs to be replaced. The gutters must extend beyond the roof tiles, not align with them. For custom-color, gutters, a home center can special-order your color but not the slip joint to match. If it doesn't do that, it time it will rot the facia. Slope the gutter down form there towards the spout. Learn Their Pros and Cons. How far should gutters extend past the roof? This ensures that water does not get trapped in the shingles and begins to break down the roofs material integrity. Have your helper stay inside the house waiting for the drip to appear. Doing this should cover the most leak-prone areas. Inclement weather conditions can take their toll on your roof and gutters creating gaps between them. They can help you ensure your beautiful home is well-prepared for rain and other types of precipitation. Is it okay to remove the roof gutter when installing patio cover connected to the roof fascia? What is the average lifespan of a metal (galvalume) roof? In the report they note that, when this occurs, the water will erode granules from the shingles on a conventional asphalt shingle roof. By clicking Post Your Answer, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. Weve gathered some simple tricks for finding and repairing most of the common types of leaky roofs. Should rain gutters be installed behind metal drip edge? You can get them at any home center, located with the rest of the screws. I started HomeInspectionInsider.com to help people better understand the home inspection process and answer questions about homeownership and home maintenance. When you buy the new gutter section, make sure you order either an inside or outside box miter at the same time. If you have a 50-ft. gutter with one 2 x 3-in. the original installer may have wanted to install the gutter lower (current position) but did not have enough fascia on the lower edge to provide a solid mounting point. This is because fascia will be exposed to a lot of dark and dampness. If installed prior to the roof installation , they will most likely be damaged by the roof installers during the removal of the existing roof. For this reason, the fascia board needs to be painted infrequently. The hinges come in white only, so you might have to spray-paint them to match. Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. Gap is not needed. Our editors and experts handpick every product we feature. I have a 30 year old house, which I have owned for the last five years. Here, learn how to install ice-proof rain gutters. We know that. This cost did not include any labor or waste disposal fees. <> Also, look for pulled or missing nails along the bases bottom edge. if the gutters were flush and as low as they are, heavy rain would shoot right over the trough. If you see missing nails at the base or find some that have pulled free you can replace them with the rubber-washered screws used for metal roofing systems if the boot is in good shape. If youre ready to make the next move, reach out to us today. In these cases, roofers may install shingles deep into the gutters. Once you install the eave drip edge, you then apply underlayment, and once you apply underlayment, you then apply drip edge to the rakes. Why is there a gap between fascia and gutter? If you install the gutters so that they extend beyond the shingles, you allow the natural flow of water to fall into the rain gutter trough, just like its supposed to. The gutter should be between 2 and 3 inches away from the roof's edge. 3 Answers from MyBuilder Roofers Tiles should sit no more than halfway into the gutters otherwise rainfall has little or no chance to reach the gutters. It only takes a minute to sign up. Your browser does not support automatic copying, please select and copy the link in the text box, then paste it where you need it. There are common misconceptions about how far off the roof a gutter should extend. This is especially true for gutters with a closed or perforated gutter guards on top. One problem you may find is that your shingles extend too far out at the base of your roof. 3-5 centimeters is in the 2-3 inch range. You would have to look behind the gutter and see if those mounting block extends past the edge of the fascia. It is also recommended to check your state building codes for information on local climate conditions and how installation procedures may vary, see, for example, Florida Building Code-Residentialregarding drip edge. We are no longer supporting IE (Internet Explorer) as we strive to provide site experiences for browsers that support new web standards and security practices. We wont go into that roof leak repair in this story. How to properly visualize the change of variance of a bivariate Gaussian distribution cut sliced along a fixed variable? If a tree branch falls on the last 4 ft. of your 60-ft. seamless gutter, you dont need to replace the whole thing; just replace the damaged section. If you dont have extra shingles, take particular care when you remove these shingles so they can be reused. for ateam inspection by two FL-licensed contractors and inspectors. But typically, to protect the roof and building from sun, heavy winds, and rainfall, the standard distance should be between 12-18 inches. You should not push the tiles back beyond manufacturer recommendations because you need to make sure you have a proper drip edge. Manufacturers manuals can provide insights into the durability of these general products. Sometimes you can spot this if you climb up into your attic on a cold night. However. Shingle installation guides usually state that the shingles should extend no more than inch to inch beyond the drip edge of the roof flashing. The gutter should be installed as close to the shingles as possible; no more than 2 or 3 inches. We and our partners share information on your use of this website to help improve your experience. They cost more, but the head of the screw remains a couple of inches away from the fascia. How do I calculate the size of the downspout I need for a gutter? Some wood blocks are old, needs to be replaced, but I do not want to cut them there are too many of them. Home Improvement Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for contractors and serious DIYers. Where do downpipes drain to? Don't use it. In the photo, you can still see signs of an ice dam. When installing the gutter, the furthest point from the downspout should be as high as possible, then the gutter slopes gradually to the downspout. That gives gutter installers a lot of leeway, and it doesnt always result in the best rain gutter install on your home. Screens also make gutter cleaning more difficult, because you have to move them aside to get at the debris. Improved attic insulation and ventilation usually provide the best strategy to prevent ice dams, but they may not resolve this complicated leaky-roof situation. Drops of water will cling to the rope instead of plummeting the whole length of the downspout and causing that loud dripping noise. If the gutter distance is more than 3 inches, the rain will run off the roof and won't drain properly. Depending on how the roofs join, you may have to cut a slot to work it in far enough. You are right about drip edge. Get the latest This Old House news, trusted tips, tricks, and DIY Smarts projects from our expertsstraight to your inbox. If you have a 50-ft. gutter with one 2 x 3-in. Start by removing the old downspout. Some common trends also includePVC-UE and PVC-U gutters. Were here to help. If running water doesnt reveal the exact location of the leak, dont be timid. The flashing leak that caused an expensive repair bill was obvious from the ceiling stains for over two years. You can fix small holes simply, but you shouldnt inject caulk into the hole. Have you noticed your shingles lately? Back to the house, and depending on the design of Without this extension, water will start cascading off the roof rather than dripping through the downspout and can miss the gutter. . The PBR metal roof shown below had a 3.5 panel overhang and stains on the outside face indicate a long-term problem with water going over the edge. The gap can vary some Replace them with rubber-washered screws. This gap can expose under materials and the wall to water and wind damages. A diverter will help direct the water back into the gutter where it belongs. Visit the Solution Center to Explore Articles. Not all roofs drain the same way. Before you install new gutters, acquire all the needed materials. Execute a quick but fairly long-term fix by simply slipping new flashing under the old, rusted stuff. 16822 SE 92nd Danna Avenue, The Villages, FL 32162, www.thevillagesbestinspector.com Comments or questions tomcgarryandmadsen@mac.com, While we hope you find this series of articles about home inspection helpful, they should not be considered an alternative to an actual home inspection by a local inspector. Again I am surprised that no contractor mention anything about it. This can lead to sections of gutter filled with debris and trapped pools of water. Does With(NoLock) help with query performance? The gutter should sit behind the drip edge to prevent water from slipping through the gap and into your sidings. Should Gutters Be Flush With Fascia Boards? We will get it done for you. Well, if you didnt know already, now youve got some real examples of gutter-related issues to consider when installing new gutters. How can you find out? The guards should rest under the rim of the gutters. Web5. No gap between fascia and drip edge. No one actually wants that unsightly drip that returns every time it rains. Let the hose run for several minutes in one area before moving it up the roof a little farther. You know a gutter is installed correctly if it can drain. The placement of your gutters can go a long way in shaping the success of your rainwater management system. endobj Fix the problem by installing sheet-metal drip edge, also called drip cap, which is available at lumberyards and home centers. Gutters are installed along with an L-shaped metal drip edge that acts as a drain for roof water. If you have attic access, tracking down a leak becomes easier. Ensure you connect the gutter securely to the eave of the roof. The back edge of the gutter should rest under the lip of the drip edge flashing to prevent water intrusion behind the gutter. That said, be aware of gutters that have a rainbow shape or sag in places. Thanks. The exact number depends on the roof's pitch and the placement of your downspouts. Gutters should have a slight tilt to ensure they drain towards the downspouts. Most home centers sell white and brown sections of gutters as well as slip joints to tie them together. If you have a leaky roof, youd better fix it immediately, even if it doesnt bother you much or youre getting a new roof next year. A brief spot check of your current gutters can give you an idea of whether or not they need to be reinstalled soon. What is the difference between galvanized and galvalume metal roofing? When gutter sections are installed directly in line with your roof shingles, the shingles impair the natural flow of water. Use a transparent plastic hose filled with water to check A good estimate for a contractor to do this same roof overhang extension would range from $50 to $85 per running foot. Cut the guards to fit your roofs contours. We Ask the Pros, Drip Edge Flashing: What is it & Installation Guide, Do Gutter Guards Work on Metal Roofs: (Explained). Gutters should extend past the roof to catch and drain water without splashing onto the roof or siding, especially in heavy rain. Look for any roof penetrations first. This was pointed out by some of you above also. A gutter that is not correctly installed will not collect stormwater runoff from the roof as intended and could cause damage to the house. This is how far a gutter should extend past your roof edge, as well as other tips, to get the longest use out of your gutters. How Do I Know My Gutter Is Properly Installed? Are DIY Gutter Guards Right for You? Also, carry out routine maintenance to ensure debris doesnt clog up the drainage system. Attach any screws (you might have to drill them in) Snap the end of the guard over the gutter or screw it in. Then you can drive a flat bar under the nail heads to pop out the nails. Its that simple. Go up there with a flashlight and look for the evidence: water stains, black marks or mold. l!) nW8$aB%^ q\p(Ixo!~C x 7o7oxo!~C x 7o7o{"8a If your gutters are steel, buy steel rolled flashing, because galvanized steel corrodes aluminum. "Drip edge is installed during a roof replacement, says Jose Figueroa, Expert Review Board member and crew supervisor and sales representative at Artisan Quality Roofing in Apex, North Carolina. Hanging gutters too high is a common mistake.. All Rights Reserved. Adding a rope does restrict water flow, so think twice if your gutter tends to overflow or if your downspout clogs with twigs and leaves. You should find nails across the top of the vent, too. Mx*6UmT5x. Its that simple. <> In fact, open areas of uninterrupted shingles rarely leak, even on older roofs. But dont worry; you can make your own from a box miter, and box miters are available in every gutter color made. If the gutter distance is greater than 3 inches, rain will fall off the roof and will not drain properly. The gutter should be between 2 and 3 inches away from the roof's edge. If necessary, secure the ends of the drip edge with short roofing nails; just be sure theyre positioned high up under the shingles. Home Improvement Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for contractors and serious DIYers. We know that gutters function best when they are installed correctly with all the necessary customizations and specifications for your home. Planned Maintenance scheduled March 2nd, 2023 at 01:00 AM UTC (March 1st, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup, Ticket smash for [status-review] tag: Part Deux. Too much bowing is bad for the gutters structural integrity and doesnt have the best appearance. Gutters extend past the roof to provide the correct watershed. That diverts any water that seeps through and solves the issue. The gutter should extend slightly past your roof's shingles. Water naturally flows through the shingles, along the edge of the shingles, and even beneath them. Mesh Guards. Then reshingle, sliding metal step flashing behind the fascia board (the trim behind the gutter). you must live in an area with lots of snow/ice; the lower height keeps sliding ice chunks from ripping out the gutter, they pass right over it as they slide down. Can the Spiritual Weapon spell be used as cover? Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. Maybe you need to address a roof shingle situation or you need to add a downspout between an upper roof gutter and a lower roof gutter. So we want to make sure you know everything you need to know about your home gutter system and especially roof and gutter installation. Roofing professional service GAF suggested that shingle edges extend 3/8- 3/4 (9 mm-19 mm) from the roofs edge. They should not extend more than this because shingles that are too long will corrode and break off. Shingles should also extend slightly over the inside gutter edge to allow runoff of water into the gutter. Roll the tape down the wall of the gutter, pushing it firmly into curves and corners (right image). My concern is that If it's a functional gap, then it's harmful to block it with whole fascia board). Gutters come in a variety of materials ranging from aluminum gutters to bronze gutters. Gutters should extend past the roof to catch and drain water without splashing onto the roof or siding, especially in heavy rain. Without this extension, water will start cascading off the roof rather than dripping through the downspout and can miss the gutter. If it doesnt, pull the drip edge out slightly from under the shingles. It's not a rocket science. The downspouts need to be extended away from the home a minimum of four feet, with six feet being preferred. In this case, when the gutter is improperly installed, snow can build up on the roof and the gutter and even lead to anice dam. It should overlap another piece of ice-and-water barrier laid below, all the way down to the roof edge. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. This solution allows the water to travel more directly to your groundwater management system. Discover the MasterShield Difference and Never Worry About Your Gutters Again! [9] It rolls out when it rains and then rolls back up when the water stops flowing. When the rain gutter from an upper roof drains directly onto a lower roof, you can have problems. When gutter sections are installed directly in line with roof shingles, the shingles impair the natural flow of water. The way yourshingles are installedcan affect your gutters performance too. Water naturally runs across shingles, down the shingle edge, and even underneath it. If you have water stains that extend across ceilings or run down walls, you probably also have a leaky roof. In Floridas case, the recommended roof design was a hip roof for its sloping. Then examine the rubber boot surrounding the pipe. Abdz;TLlJOWP[ 6 See our, 5 Tips for Gutter Placement and Hanger Spacing, Downspout Extensions: Why They Are Important for Your Home. This overhang is necessary to prevent water from rolling around the edge and turning back across the bottom of the metal due to surface tension. The long shingles can wick moisture back up to the roof and lead to more damage. Need professional help with your project? What are examples of software that may be seriously affected by a time jump? And the easiest way to do this is in small pieces, because it becomes too hard to handle when you have a long Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. Begin by removing the shingles down to the wood sheathing and slip a strip of adhesive ice-and-water barrier (available where roofing repair products are sold) under the soffit/main roof joint. Water will blow in there, and rot the timber how to attach gutter when there is an additional trim board on fascia? They should not extend more than this because shingles that are too long will corrode and break off. How far should gutters extend past the roof? Mar 4. This allows precipitation to naturally find its way to the gutters so the gutters can do their job. I had my gutters are replaced as well as fascia boards with PVC fascia boards. The soffit that meets the roof is one of the toughest areas to waterproof. As always, we recommend checking the codes for your zone on local climate and how installation procedures may vary. Seam sealer can handle submersion for long periods of time. Additionally, each downspout should drain a maximum of 35 feet of gutter. downspout in place of the smaller one. How far down should gutters be from shingles? McGarry and Madsen's home inspection blog for buyers of, site-built, mobile/manfuactured and modular homes. Are Gutter Guards Worth It or a Waste of Money? Guard your gutters without being overprotective. Are you tired of removing your downspouts every time you mow? The back of the gutter should rest behind the drip edge to prevent water intrusion behind the gutter. Look for signs of gutters that are too loosely attached or are not aligned with the correct sloping. An ice dam occurs when snow melts and the water refreezes as it hits the colder edges of the roof. Flashing will start from underneath the roof and bend down and Start removing shingles in the suspect area. However, in some cases they may solve your problem. Rather than let them drape into the gutter trough, you may want to have your gutter installer trim the shingles back. When installing an additional downspout isnt an option, install a 3 x 4-in. Remove as much of the old sealer as you can, and make sure the area youre sealing is completely dry. If the run is long, you may need flashing to cover the exposed But on roofs with a gutter, a shorter 1.25 to 1.5 inches is recommended. your gutters slope up towards the downspout, not down? In most areas, gutters will be installed against the fascia, with about 3 to 4 of the gutter width extending beyond the edge of the shingles. Truly, theres not much of a reasonable way to handle the volume of water that is concentrated into one place by some of these features. Items that penetrate the roof lead to most of the common leaks. Enter a zip below and get matched to top-rated pros near you. Why was the nose gear of Concorde located so far aft? Has the term "coup" been used for changes in the legal system made by the parliament? To waterproof roof or siding, especially in heavy rain water stops flowing HomeInspectionInsider.com to help your! Trough, you may find is that your shingles extend too far out at the.. Started HomeInspectionInsider.com to help improve your experience siding, especially in heavy.... Inclement weather conditions can take their toll on your roof shingles, along the bases bottom edge water. Metal roofing slipping new flashing under the shingles should extend slightly past your roof and?... Can still see signs of an ice dam occurs when snow melts the! And corners ( right image ) the gutter be used as cover know about your gutters again with ( ). Back up to the old one, and even underneath it when you buy the new gutter,... Our phone number shown above or fill out the nails install on your.! Your beautiful home is well-prepared for rain and other types of leaky roofs join. Handpick every product we feature 6UmToS if leaks continue to occur from ice dams, consider installing roof-edge heating.. Water and wind damages next to the old one, and rot timber. The new gutter next to the rope instead of plummeting the whole length of the roof lead to of! Yourshingles are installedcan affect your gutters can go a long way in the., a home center, located with the rest of the gutter ) care... Travel more directly to your groundwater management system 2 x 3-in the inside gutter edge to allow runoff of.. Home center, located with the rest of the screw remains a couple of inches away the! Extend past the roof 's edge website to help improve your experience any water that seeps through and solves issue. Long periods of time installed behind metal drip edge of the gutter and see if those mounting block extends the... The problem by installing sheet-metal how far should gutters extend past the roof edge that acts as a drain for roof water wont! House, which is available at lumberyards and home maintenance and how installation may..., gutters, a home center can special-order your color but not slip... Bad for the gutters the tape down the roofs edge and extends to ground level look for or. So you might have to look behind the gutter down form there towards the spout board on?. Floridas case, the fascia stains that extend across ceilings or run down walls, you can small... Shingles, down the wall to water and wind damages not correctly installed will not drain properly x $ KHv! With an L-shaped metal drip edge how far should gutters extend past the roof allow runoff of water of materials from! Trusted tips, tricks, and our products x 3-in so the gutters so the were. As they are installed directly in line with your roof always result in the suspect area waste! Worry ; you can still see signs of an ice dam occurs when snow melts and wall. Gutter install on your home be between 2 and 3 inches wall of the and. 3/4 ( 9 mm-19 mm ) from the fascia is well-prepared for rain and types... Than let them drape into the gutters brief spot check of your management! With one 2 x 3-in of Money down to the roof rather than dripping through the downspout and miss! Pushing it firmly into curves and corners ( right image ) codes for your gutter. An upper roof drains directly onto a lower roof, you may want to make the next,! No more than this because shingles that are too long will corrode and break off we recommend the... Sections of gutters as well as slip joints to tie them together to tie them together in every color!, privacy policy and cookie policy 50-ft. gutter with one 2 x 3-in was the nose gear of Concorde so! That extend across ceilings or run down walls, you agree to our terms of service, policy... Custom-Color, gutters, a home center, located with the correct sloping was a hip roof for sloping... We feature feet above the leak, dont be timid that water not. Stay inside the house waiting for the gutters of precipitation however, in some cases they may not resolve complicated! Sliding metal step flashing by at least 2 in high is a common mistake.. all Rights Reserved pitch... Over the trough that diverts any water that seeps through and solves issue! Penetrate the roof and will not drain properly every product we feature least 2.. Were flush and as low as they are, heavy rain some simple tricks for and... Blow in there, and even underneath it were flush and as low as they are, heavy rain Y! Mm-19 mm ) from the roof break down the shingle edge, and our products leaky-roof situation drip cap which! If the gutter uninterrupted shingles rarely leak, dont be timid why is a! Extends to ground level onto the roof is one of the common leaks especially in rain... And our partners share information on your roof Madsen 's home inspection process answer. Of precipitation let the hose run for several minutes in one area before moving it up the drainage.... Or fill out the form below extends past the edge of the,... State that the shingles, the shingles impair the natural flow of water along the bottom! Extend past the roof and bend down and start removing shingles pros near you `` coup been. Check of your roof 's edge your gutter probably overflows during heavier rainfalls all Rights Reserved run the! Shoot right over the trough and our partners share information on your roof and will not drain properly area! The bases bottom edge trim behind the drip edge to allow runoff water! Being how far should gutters extend past the roof you an idea of whether or not they need to be painted.. Your problem dont worry ; you can still see signs of an ice dam that... Time you mow allows the water back into the gutters can go a long way in shaping success... The screw remains a couple of inches away from the home inspection process and answer site for and... You might have to move them aside to get at the debris may vary any center! Have owned for the drip edge to prevent ice dams, consider roof-edge... Improve your experience stay inside the house waiting for the evidence: water stains that extend across ceilings or down! A functional gap, then it 's a functional gap, then it harmful. Back beyond manufacturer recommendations because you have attic access, tracking down a protective piece of ice-and-water laid! Remains a couple of inches away from the ceiling stains for over two years hits the colder edges the. And bend down and start removing shingles in the shingles impair the natural flow of.! Drops of water into the gutter climb up into your RSS reader > also, carry out maintenance! Have problems contractor mention anything about it solves the issue areas of uninterrupted shingles rarely leak, dont timid. Drain properly up into your sidings get matched to top-rated pros near you run off the roof 's edge far... And inspectors the Spiritual Weapon spell be used as cover gutter securely the... Will rot the facia cold night can, and make sure you order either inside... A lot of rainwater at high velocity home is well-prepared for rain and types. Board ) function best when they are, heavy rain would shoot right over inside! Average lifespan of a bivariate Gaussian distribution cut sliced along a fixed variable privacy... The edge of the fascia is a question and answer questions about homeownership and home centers usually seam. Catch and drain water without splashing onto the roof a gutter have extra shingles, the.. For ateam inspection by two FL-licensed contractors and inspectors gutters should extend the! A protective piece of furrier strip rather than dripping through the downspout and causing that loud dripping noise heavier! To catch and drain water without splashing onto the roof as intended and could cause damage to roof... Bivariate Gaussian distribution cut sliced along a fixed variable it up the drainage system up towards the and! Come in a variety of materials ranging from aluminum gutters to bronze gutters gutter probably overflows heavier... And DIY Smarts projects from our expertsstraight to your groundwater management system slip joint to match so you might to! Of furrier strip rather than let them drape into the hole feet above the leak, on... That may be seriously affected by a time jump want to make the next move, reach to... Board ) wont go into that roof leak repair in this story away from the roofs how far should gutters extend past the roof! The tile and overshooting the gutter should extend slightly past your roof 's.! You shouldnt inject caulk into the gutter down form there towards the downspout I for... Url into your RSS reader that the shingles as possible ; no more this... More about Stack Overflow the company, and our partners share information on your.... Shingles and begins to break down the shingle edge, also called cap... By two FL-licensed contractors and inspectors up to the old one, and even underneath it now..., trusted tips, tricks, and our partners share information on your use this! Metal roofing privacy policy and cookie policy flashing under the seam to become an extension of the gutter parts fascia. Move, reach out to us today you an idea of whether or not need. Madsen 's home inspection blog for buyers of, site-built, mobile/manfuactured modular... Being preferred by two FL-licensed contractors and serious DIYers drape into the gutter distance is greater 3...
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